A little guide to force fights in 1.02

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Boothand
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A little guide to force fights in 1.02

Post by Boothand » 12 Oct 2015, 20:43

Why does FF exist?
Since shortly after the game came out, there have been social rules teaching players how to play. I guess you could say they are traditions. One of our traditions is force fights (FF), which can possibly also be translated as full force, fair fight/force. The idea in any case is to have a fair duel using most (yeah, really not all) force powers and your lightsaber. A reason for this tradition, is probably because people thought it to be less fun when no rules apply - we would be stuck with a gameplay that for example is about getting the first drain, and that is something that works in FL (where you play throughout the entire map, with shields etc), but not in a duel context. Hence restrictions apply to prevent the gameplay to boil down to something that dumbs down force duels or nullifies the skill so many people have and appreciate.

What restrictions actually apply?
This, as you can imagine, has changed over the years, back and forth, so technically there is no definite answer. People have different 'standards'. Some people, like me, are very reluctant to push those rules, others are more annoyed at some restrictions or disagree with them, some people don't care that much, and of course a lot of people haven't been playing long enough to know how it used to be. It's really up to you, but here's a heads up on what might trigger reactions:
  • Absorb - People usually say sorry if they accidentally turn on absorb :P That's how frowned upon it is. It resists all force powers and can be abused to no end. Should be considered okay as a resistance to grips.
  • Drain (in particular DW - drain whoring) - You are allowed to drain. You must drain, but you should not advance on your opponent before they would have gained up what you took from them. All or most people agree on this, but people tend to forget this when they are in force rage. During the 'waiting' time, you should try to stay alive without being on the offence. Here is an advantage light siders automatically get; they can heal up independetly. Also, try to avoid draining people in force rage. If it's absolutely necessary, give them the time it would take to gain up their force.
  • Force protect forever - Many lightsiders tend to use protect without moderating themselves (which is understandable, makes you survive, right?). Fights can last many minutes when someone protects every time they fall, and usually what it takes to beat this strategy is getting frequent triple hits (difficult) or more, getting someone stuck and DFAing their head, pinning against a wall or just random strong surprise hits to catch them off guard. Compared to force rage, protect does not have a cooldown to speak of, and is therefore a lot more powerful than rage.
  • Nasty grips -
    • Wall-grip - Gripping someone behind a wall has not been allowed for a very long time. It simply makes the opponent defenseless.
    • Other grips are usually not commented on, but a particularly rude one (in my opinion on par with wallgrip) is gripping people using force rage. Once someone is in force rage, they either have 0, 1 or 2 chances to pull/push away, depending on how much force they had when starting rage.
    • Quick tap grips are rude in my opinion, since they stun the opponent and makes them pretty defenseless unless they're totally ready for it (and a bit lucky).
    • Carousel/rollercoaster grips - A quite cheeky grip which is very annoying to be exposed to, basically grip the opponent around in a wild random circle, making it very difficult to defend.
  • Saberthrow - Saberthrow is by many considered cheap, as it deals an absurd amount of damage and takes almost no time, or leaves little room for any answers/counters. Some people consider a few okay, but in my opinion it's overpowered (and as such rude!).
  • Uppercut spam - Blue uppercut is a useful move, important for managing your way in air, changing directions and feinting etc. It's also an extremely devastating move with a long spike that has very few answers/counters, and spamming it as an attack tends to annoy people.
  • Cheap lightning - Lightning is not a very 'serious' force power, in any game type. Most people find some humor in it. However, in FF some people like to finish off opponents who are at very low health and at a distance with a lightning bolt. This is considered cheap, and most people who do it admits so afterwards (that's the humor). Lightning level 3 is purely rude.
Did you know that one of the main factors that people engaged in massive lame- and flame wars, in the slightly older days, was disagreement over FF standards? Amagad! Well, it must be really fun to play, right? So... over to the hows!

The very basics of playing FF.
Whether you play FF (full fair force fight.. yeah) or PP (pull, push, kick + saber), the foundations are thusly except where only other force powers apply:
You must be close to your opponent to kick him down to the ground, but in doing so you risk being pulled to the ground or kicked down yourself.
Here's how it works:
  • If you are moving (pressing any movement key direction), you will fall over to the ground IF the opponent is close enough when they pull or push.
  • If you are kicked while standing, there's a 20% chance that you'll fall to the ground.
  • Pull and push can be used not only to make people fall - but also to stun the opponent for a short amount of time so you can approach them. Push has a longer stun period, but also takes a little longer to recover from yourself.
  • You can be pulled/pushed from anywhere if you are currently pulling/pushing, jumping, using a force power like drain or grip, or if you are swinging your saber in any way. This does not pull you down, but you'll slide across the floor and be vulnerable to kicks.
  • Once you've fallen down, you are vulnerable to saber swings (your saber will not block them). In FF you would usually turn on rage or protect at this point so you can survive their attacks. Darksiders will have a long cooldown after rage, and have to stay on their feet for 10 seconds to not be killed instantly next time they fall.
  • Once the opponent has fallen and cannot use rage anymore, it's common to do more finisher-like moves since they won't be able to retaliate when they die.
That's the foundations, but the real fun is when you have a lot of training in this and don't have to think about it. With the amount of crazy moves, bugs/features, skill and creativity that comes with experience, playing FF/PP can be the coolest game experience you have ever had. Maybe.

  • Finally, some tips for those who have already played quite a bit:
  • Don't pull and push if you don't have to or if it doesn't make sense. Your opponent can use this against you effectively, with saber swings that you pull, or by taking advantage of your patterns, or by moving in to kick you while you're 'recovering'.
  • Don't BS and DFA too early. Almost every time you do this to someone who yet has a rage/protect to spare, you give them a free shot at a counter attack, and you'll be at the same disadvantage that they are, or worse off.
  • Don't roll too much near people. A pull/push can slow you down enough for them to kick or BS you. However, roll-pulls can be good as long as your end position is not too close to their feet.
  • Don't spend your force when someone drains you for health. Instead, gain your force back and hold them 'hostage' by using your saber only to swing at them. They are not allowed to take advantage of that before the drain waiting period is over, however they may push you back and otherwise resist.
  • Learn how to do yellow double hits. That's 120 damage. It's all about moving your character and the mouse in a quite simple wave pattern.
  • Learn how to use the red forward slash on people who have fallen. Timing and aiming it correctly can often gain you 3-4 hits in one go (300-400 damage before rage/protect). It also usually knocks people far enough away to be quite safe from counter moves.
More advanced tips & tricks will follow, probably with short video clips to demonstrate!

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Daggolin
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Re: A little guide to force fights in 1.02

Post by Daggolin » 12 Oct 2015, 21:12

Very nice! :D

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Kazuka
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Re: A little guide to force fights in 1.02

Post by Kazuka » 12 Oct 2015, 21:13

Awesome guide!

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Boothand
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Re: A little guide to force fights in 1.02

Post by Boothand » 12 Oct 2015, 23:48

Gaining free pulls + kicks

Let's start with one of the basic mechanics of FF/PP.

A basic rule of thumb is:
- The one who gets pushed but not stunned, gains the advantage.

So - anything that you do, that causes you to slide across the floor when being pushed, gains you an advantage. This can be done by doing quick swings in blue or yellow style.
In turn, this can work against the opponent also if they choose to pull. However, for an experienced player, this won't be too hard to counter by pulling at the right time, after the swing. But discovering it takes practice, and you can expect to gain a lot of upper hand with small tactics like swinging and jumping.


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fau
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Re: A little guide to force fights in 1.02

Post by fau » 13 Oct 2015, 12:33

Why didn't you just make a mod forcing all these unwritten rules? Someone unfamiliar with jk2 would say after reading this post that it's own players consider it a broken game ;-)

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Boothand
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Re: A little guide to force fights in 1.02

Post by Boothand » 13 Oct 2015, 12:54

Yeah, almost every game type has a set of unwritten rules. Even FL (fun-lame), the gametype that exists as a result of disregarding all rules, has one rule (no pushing/throwing off the edge of the map).

Sometimes I wish there was a mod like that, and popular. It would be kind of cool, but I'm not sure what the people who are left in JK2 would think. I kind of enjoy the restrictions, it adds to gameplay, but sometimes it's inevitably unbalanced since no two players are the same. And it's not very obvious to beginners.

A good FF mod could be one that reduced saberthrow dmg from 30 to 5, made drain always gain health without actually draining force, made a cooldown for protect, disabled absorb and lightning and broke grip behind obstacles or if the opponent is in rage.

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ouned
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Re: A little guide to force fights in 1.02

Post by ouned » 13 Oct 2015, 13:32

the problem isn't absorb grip or any other power
its the regentime.. set it to 100 and you will see who is actually able to use forcepowers :p

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Boothand
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Re: A little guide to force fights in 1.02

Post by Boothand » 13 Oct 2015, 13:48

ouned wrote:the problem isn't absorb grip or any other power
its the regentime.. set it to 100 and you will see who is actually able to use forcepowers :p
(No one.. for a couple of minutes :P)

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Re: A little guide to force fights in 1.02

Post by fou_original » 14 Oct 2015, 00:56

regentime was 100 for a long time, the problem however is that like a game of chess you had to think ahead, think about what force power to use.
do I have enough force left to defend myself after I use grip? the force powers which required more force were being dropped from using (why try and grip when there is a big chance it gets broken instantly) drain was the biggest sin for a dark player because you render the opponent defenseless and after a while only push and pull were being used. also absorb was OP.
And although it brings the technical aspect to a higher level, which might seem fun for some, the action and fast paced flow of a fight is very low.
with 0 regentime there is a lower risk to die when u make an error and thus more risks are taken and more errors are made, which in turn result in an action packed fight. which is what people want I guess.

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Re: A little guide to force fights in 1.02

Post by Boothand » 02 Mar 2016, 23:51

Duplicating the post from viewtopic.php?f=35&t=443, since relevant here!

There are a few montages etc mostly featuring force fights in 1.02, mostly from Spaz and me I think.
But! They never really give the full picture, do they?

Here's a look at almost every detail throughout a force fight, with your permission to spam the pause button :D


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